Who Makes the Cut for England's Commonwealth Games Netball Squad?

This episode of Off the Court is brought to you in partnership with American Express. Open up your book of great sporting moments. England Rosses. They just rewrote history again. This new era net Super League has had it all. That is what it means. This place, this time, this team, London Pulse, a crown netball Super League Champions 2025. Welcome to Off the Core. I'm Taming Greenway, head coach of London Mavericks. And joining me every week, co-host Tracy Neville, managing director of Stockport County women's football team and of course the ex England Rosses head coach. Welcome Tracy. And what a weekend of net ball. We had the top of the table clash. We're going straight in there because it didn't disappoint. Love

for Lightning up against London pools and it was an extra time thriller at a packed out copper box. Uh I'm guessing you watched the game. I mean every net but it's been going on my like real like every single thing on Instagram. It's like have you seen this? Have you seen Yeah. I thought it was a superb game. I think it was the one to watch on um Sunday evening. And um you know the biggest shock for me was obviously the um Sam Wallace not playing which obviously is something that you're not expecting as um as a team going in. However, you know, I think LY Lightning did well. Like Pulse trailed most of the game. Um, but obviously when it mattered, they come in and sank them super shots that you would have thought

LY Lightning would have been absolutely nailing and been famous for consistently throughout that. So, yeah, it was a great game and a great spectacle from both teams. So, well done coaches. We thoroughly enjoyed it. Although I'm sure that Vicky Burgess didn't enjoy the loss. Well, oh no, it's their first one of the season. So I'm not sure they'll be too fussed. And it was a thriller and I think more importantly how well LRA Lightning did without Sammy Wallace. I think that was the first question I wanted to ask. So when you're a coach or a player and you get a team sheet through there was always a player like you didn't want to play against. It was like oh god I got to play against her or

there was something and when that team list comes through without that person's name on it, you're like this is brilliant. Now, you can't tell me London Paul didn't sit there with Sammy Wallace not on the list and go, "Oh, this will be interesting." But on the flip side, I think Ella Clark was outstanding in a goal shooter. She's been playing goal tackle all season. But how difficult then is it for a team to prepare when you've you put all your eggs in one basket around a star player. You get the announcement on the Friday or whatever before the game that this person's not playing. And you have not touched on that a lot. I mean, you do look at second strings and other lineups and changes that they

might do, but the reality is with someone like Sammy Wallace, you'd expect her to see out the game in a top of the table clash. So, how hard is it to prepare then as a coach and a team when that happens? Like I think the difficult for me about that with Lra Lightning was um I've only seen potentially Sam Wallace come off that court twice and generally that has been because she's gone down with an injury. It's not really been a tactical change or I think or they've been like 20 up. There were loads up. Yeah. It's not like something that they frequently use against teams. Yes. So that in its way was you know quite unexpected and I actually do think it threw pulse at the start

because of the way you defend Ella Clark is completely different to where you defend Sam Wallace. Um, and I think it did throw them at the start and the unexpectedness. The difference with was and I don't know if this paid them the price in the end was their score to goal ratio. So they actually with Samos on the court they score pretty quickly. Um, and they had to work the ball around a lot more with Eller and Bry which fatigue wise they're not used to doing their midies and they have to work in a lot more. It testes a lot of ball skills. It tests a lot of what's their backup where generally if you look they are probably the most efficient team to go with Sam Wis on that court. So you'd think because obviously they lost towards the

end and was it the super shots maybe but I actually think maybe it was fatigue and the fact that they actually you know pulse by the end were having a lot more opportunities to be able to win ball and I think that's what got them over the the line at the end to be honest. I think that's credit to LRA as well in terms of how they can play the game then, isn't it? because that midcourt is so dominant in terms of leadership and experience that like you say playing an extra ball around um is key is crucial is clinical especially when you're playing against a dominant pulse defense side who will always winning ball in the circle and how you can frustrate teams and how we always kind of navigate to the ends that like you've

got these dominant shooters that are sinking the super shots and look Paul scored 18 out of 25 super shots that's that's insane and that was a major reason as well got over the line and under pressure Liv Sheen was outstanding again but we always navigate to the ends your midcourt your driving force they are your sort of unsung heroes a lot of the time yeah and you know I actually looked at the game and let's let's bear in mind who else lad as well you know and I think this probably would have been a change for me because I actually think towards the latter part of the game or towards that extra time I probably because of the score rate to goal. I would have probably put my best ball handlers in there which is obviously Nap Panagari but she had to

obviously play wing defense to cover Beth Durant spot. We then saw Apple Applebe Prince go down. So then you saw the assistant coach Joe Trip come on the court. So you know they didn't have their usual people. Now I'm not saying I'm not taking anything away from Paul for any team um to come back at a team and then win was that's what the super shot's all about, isn't it? That's what you know, you want to take it to the wire. You want to put pressure on the other team and that gives you the capacity to do that. And I actually went back and looked at this because I look at the one-point game and I look at the two-point game and I obviously watched the Giants Vixen's game as well and Vixon's actually won

that game 6242 in the one-point game. Um, and then when I went to Pulse and I thought they actually Love Lau were far outdoing um, Pulse in that one-point game and I actually think and I haven't got the stats on this cuz they're not I'll give you a stat here. Bearing in mind how dominant Pulse are in live turnover. They only had seven live turnovers in that game. Like that would just go to the credit of how well played the ball around. However, that is so difficult to do, especially when it goes into extra time as well to then keep getting the ball over the line when you have to work that hard to score.

Yeah. And you know, when I look at that and you know, pulse and would with Sammy Wallace on, would they have won that two-point time? Who knows? It would be great if that game comes up again at some point to actually see who would actually shoot it out in that particular time. But Sophie Kelly did come on excellent. Did a job. I thought lived to Sheen in that game, you know, it's the first time I've properly seen her stand up in that two point time. So, I thought she was outstanding. Um, and then I look at it from a coach's point of view and I always like to reflect it back to the

coach's point of view. And you look at a team like Giants and you look at a team like Pulse and you look at a team like they're all completely different because when you look at with all their players available, they are really efficient in the one on two point. But when you look at teams like Pulse, a lot of their games have been won and a I'm taking the win with that two-point time. They're not quite as efficient in that one point. And like Giants, you know, I've just given you a score of 6242 and they lost by one by shooting it out in that two-point time. So, as a coach, Tams, and I'm going to ask you this, and

obviously you're you're live coaching at the moment. How do you approach a game like that? So, yeah. Grian. Yeah. Do you go do you think I'm just going to challenge him in the one point which obviously that you have different players on for that or do you say right what I'm going to do is I'm going to challenge in the one but I'm going to attack the two and you see teams that do it like you look at Melbourne Mavericks bringing Polari on. Um you look at potentially fixing sometimes bringing Lily Graham on and you look at um you know Lightning who you know and you look at Sophie Forns you know. So what would you do? That's the question I'm going to ask you. One

of our big workons for this season was actually attacking the onepoint zone because we talked about in the show you have that for 40 minutes and actually last season as a Mavericks team we got over the line through our super shots. We were not doing enough onepinters. So we were averaging around 32 one-pointers which you cannot survive in this league beating the top teams at that. So hitting over 40 points is a non-negotiable at this level at one point. So that is a big work on because I actually think everything's kind of plateaued in terms of the amount of attempts um that teams are going for in the super shot. So it's it's high over here and actually one of the questions we've had is why is it so much higher than SSN but it is higher

but I do think there's an element of it can keep you in the game. So our game against Rhinos this weekend they we had seven out of 10 super shots. Um I think they were 13 out of 25. So we're getting 14 points off that they're getting 26. So actually in the one point we absolutely dominated and then we trickled in the two points when they mattered for us. And because we were never behind, we were never chasing the game. It actually it helped us because we controlled the area and we went for super shots when we wanted to rather than when we had to. So I still think as a coach at the minute there is an element of doing that. And if you're in a chase mode game of having to outscore

in a two-point game, there's always a risk. There's always a high risk that you can lose that. So I think what you were finding with LRA and um and Pulse is that they're both so dominant in that area. You know, Ella Clark and Liv are very happy shooting from those positions. Um when you are a team that are heavily reliant on one shooter to do that or when you are you've got young players in there that are learning the game or whether you're under pressure, it becomes a risk. So I still don't think you need to take away from the one point and I think you have to find a tactic that works for your team in the twopoint zone. Um, but I do think players are shooting more in this league because I think a we have for a

long time not had the massive target shooters. So, a lot of our shooters are comfortable from shooting from range. And don't lose that as young kids, by the way. Like, let them shoot from places because it's really, really important part of the game. And I also think our defenders aren't as big. So, I do think there's a natural piece here that our defensive play in the two-point zone is not as good as SSN at the moment for all teams across the board. I think it's getting better, but I do think it's there so there's less fear of putting the shot up. So, I'm going to throw something else at you which we used to do. You have to have a highly skilled player because yeah, I did say at first that we're not

marking the two point and we are doing it better. Um, take me wrong, but the other thing we used to do tactically is um score rate. So, you know, when you've got someone like Janil Fowler on there, you've got someone like um Shimona Jock on there um or Nelson, you got someone like Noki, you score pretty quickly. So, what we, you know, we started to take, you know, you see now teams, so for example, when people when teams play Giants or the former Giants that used to be, you know, we used to slow the ball down in our attack. So, we used to take time off the clock and I think Swiss were, you know, renowned for it. So I saw that in the game v you know people were getting the ball back quickly. No and what they'd

shown all game is they took quite a lot long time to get the ball to goal but what they did is in that extra time and I don't know if it was panic or pressure what they should have probably done which they've done really well and they've got the players on there to do is play the possession game. So what they do is slow the ball down. So people like Sophie Kelly and Li Tasheen have very limited time or shots on goal. And we used to do that a lot against teams that um you know Giants probably the most famous one for it. You know they could go out like you saw on you know that I think you what was it they scored something like nearly 30 goals in the two-point time. So what you

do is you just reduce the number of shots they have. you know, they're going to shoot two points, but what you do is right, we're only going to allow them to score three. So on that five minutes, possession for you is a slow rate to goal. And it's, you know, it's trusting your players with the ball. It's trusting the tact. So you say this and I hear where you're coming from. It's like, yep, they're playing it around. It's fine. But again, for that, but the risk of that is the timing goes out.

Everyone starts crowding for the ball. So this is sort of elite level technical stuff goes out that you know on the backup they're not holding properly that option's not there. There's so many other elements to it. I actually did a really um cool project in the summer about phases of play and I looked at England and broke some stuff down and I was looking at center pass to goal. So, not the time limit, but almost the phases. And you found the sweet spot was in between five to eight phases of center pass going to goal because at that point, like you might have gone one, two, driving depth, but you're in a terrible feeding position deep in the pocket. So, you've put a swing in there.

The shooter might have got it, shuffled it into a better position. There's your five. You might have gone back up for one, reset, come round, swung the ball again. So, you'd get to your eight. What we found is anything under five was high risk. So it looks great and it's so funny because at junior net ball like you speak to kids and they'll go you know what's watch your center pass and it's that one two three in and it's like yeah that's wonderful elite level if you're doing that the defense you're playing against is awful trust me like you don't get to do that so anything under five phases was like what I'd say is a glory pass there was something amazing or a shooter shooting

from the edge or you know there was something incredible in there anything over eight phases well that's where it became really um tricky if it wasn't on purpose and it because you've been shut down. the panic that could then ensue and what I'd say like the circle would turn both midcourters would be exiting like backup would be on and off like there was an absolute panic around that and it became um yeah that five to eight phases became the sweet spot but like you say you know if you can go in one two three and especially in supershot time when teams are letting you get under the one pointer do you risk playing an extra couple of phases to wind the clock down or do you just put the shot up because if you lose the possession at that

point can be a four goal swing So basically again coaching is ridiculous. Yeah. But we used to have um leaders in them particular times now. Um you see them quite you know really good on the ball like Net Metaf absolutely awesome on the ball like you know when when you used to say right who would you let pass or shoot that ball in the you know for the Commonwealth Games gold or the World Cup gold you used to play these games like when you were little you know you've got to have people who so what we you know like someone like a let's just take nav because I've mentioned her um the other players that we used to have Chelsea Pitman was pretty good on the ball as well so you know we used to say to them, you know, you they would just

know how to play the ball and get possession. So, you know, that game that you used to play with kids where you're like, right, you've got the ball, you've got these like you've got two defenders and you just got to play possession games. And I always remember why Tamaru Ling Gunson used to hammer us on that. You know, it was three a triangle, you had one defender, two defenders, and you just had to get do 20 possessions and if you didn't do it, you did it again. That is the sort of thing that people like Kate Maloney put out. You know, if you saw, you know, you see them put that out all the time. You know, the ability.

It's not about going right, we've got to play the ball to get round. No, Kate Maloney has to play the ball around because she can do it. You know, you can't have, you know, someone like Shimona J, you know, Gil Fowler going, "Right, you're gonna go and make four poss five or six possessions today." Oh my god. You be you'd be like, "Take me, take me in the ambulance like as a coach." So, you know, you're sat there, you're going, you have key, you know, standup players who can actually do that. Nat Panagari, if I look at Nat Panagari, Zara Everett, I think she's awesome. I actually think Alicia Skos is good on the ball as well. But you have stand Alicia just wants to throw it

though that it'd be like one of them. Oh, just hold on. Um, but you know, you have standout players who can do that through teams and they're the ones that control like the ending, do you know? So you don't really talk about it in phases because you start talking phases to wing attacks and goal attacks. They start getting involved, you know, and half the time you probably sometimes don't want them involved. Um, you know, and you just talk about let me have it. Yeah. And yeah, you don't talk about number of passes. You're just like, look, I want you to play possession. I want you to play a give and go game. I want you to play. So you just change your tactic around it. And like that is

a highly skilled player. But I do see a relevance of that because now I'm seeing so much ball being thrown away, it's driving me crazy. Hey, you'll love it. Our game this weekend, 15 errors for my team. We actually had a little mini celebration at the end. Lowest ever for Mavericks. Um, listen, I've got a quick question because you sent me a really interesting screenshot of something that went out on social media and it made me smile a little bit. So, um, the Brisbane Lions AFL team over out in Australia, they let their little

kickers or whatever they're called. They come in their little junior clubs come in and use their venue. Lovely. Aussie kicks. There you go. They use their venue. Now, what they didn't anticipate is on the board on the main training board, they'd left up a massive sign of um the opposition that they were playing. So, this is Brisbane Line as a professional AFL team playing against an opposition. And on there they'd listed all the players that they were playing against, their strengths and weaknesses. And a parent from the Aussie kickers, I mean, I'm I'm guessing they're never allowed to go back to Lions ever again, took a photo of it and put it on social media for everyone to see. Now, I love

this because a always remember to wipe the board. My team laugh at me when I get my sleeve and I just wipe it, but I do. And b second thing is how um how much you break down the opposition. Coming back to players like Net Matov and those leaders in the team when you were in there as an England coach and bringing that back around to Paul's playing lightning and matching up against players. How much did you break down oppositions in terms of their strengths and weaknesses? Was that a thing you could do? Because I talk I talk about it all the time.

Rachel Dunn and Carrie Almond. Rachel Dunn and Carrie Alman. I don't that gives me nightmares. Rachel Dunn and Kerry Alman the prime example from Of course we did. Yeah. Um yeah, we it's probably done a it's done a little bit like what the Lions have done. Um you know it's on a board we you know what do we learn from the last game? What habits? What drives them mad? You know what can we wind them up with? And it's really it's quite bad really. It's quite bad. Um because the terminology is when they then join your team to the changing room. Yeah. Oh god, we can't talk about it. And then they join your team, you think, I was slating you last year.

Yeah. Oh, you can do this the way you can do that to I know. But were you to be honest? Um when you teach your environment well, you know, we used to get clips through. So I'd get clips through from um say Joe Hartton or you know Helen Halsby on say I'll just pick up with Joe Weston and they go right look at this Tracy what's your thoughts on this um you know and they would send through some key things and we chat about that but we also we used to do a scouting book as well so we used to have um all individual players that in preseason we used to build a scouting book of all individual players in the team what do we know about them what do they like what do they don't like and you then sort of bring it into and then we used

to focus on like the unit and teams but it there is traits that you know players have that you can really home in on you just got to be experienced enough to do it. Well that's the thing like you can tell people what people are going to do. Everyone's got habits and the biggest thing for me and I speak to young players about this all the time. Um I speak to my players all the time. your biggest strength can ultimately become your biggest weakness cuz it's my job to look at what you're doing and break every single aspect of that down and that when you get a team to that level like a pulse and a lightning at the

minute that's when individuals can go at each other. Listen, we're going to take a quick break and we will be right back. Now, it's time to thank our partner for this episode, American Express. We all know that the AMX Supershot rewards teams and communities in the Netball Super League. But did you know AMX could also help you unlock the experiences you really care about? With AMX, you can earn points on everyday spend, like morning coffee, the commute, and groceries, and use those points on the things you love the most. What about match tickets for more Super League games or your team's merch for the big

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Annual fee applies after the first year. Cashback cards also available. Minimum spend required to earn cash back. Subject to status 18 plus. Rates may vary. T's and C apply. Welcome back to Off the Court. Tracy, before the break, we were just talking about players biggest strengths becoming their biggest weaknesses and basically how you wind up other players when you're breaking down what you deem to be uh the thing that's going to make a difference on the court. You were talking about Kerry Almond and Rachel Dunn and I was uh that was a longstanding probably battle for many years on the court. You at Manchester, me at Surrey Storm, and then go on.

Yeah. One of the biggest sticks for us um was Rachel didn't like a shot being hit from behind. So it was, you know, let's get in there early, hitting a shot out, get a penalty, do it maybe again. Um and then Yeah. And then what happens is then she's sometimes icky shot. Um and to be honest, I'm sure you were doing some stuff for us. The best I'll tell you the best story was um one of our volunteers at one of our games and I'm not going to say the team um actually brought us the coach's coaching book. Now my coaching book is the most sweatiest thing for me, the one that we're taking to training. The one on side of court is just a scribble book for me, but I am so protective around it about leaving it somewhere. And one of

the coaches had left her coaching book in the change room. One of our volunteers had instantly brought it to us. Um we actually beat them in the final that year and it wasn't New Tamson. So you been feel quite lucky. But it was actually like did you did you use I was like yeah that is one thing that you never do. It's one of the biggest mistakes you never make. Well you wouldn't need to worry if you found my coaching book because that's all you get. So and it's on random pages of random things. So you never need to worry. And um and it's really funny you know I got a bit of stick last week off Karen Greg because um you know we talked about who never lost. So I actually think I give love for life the coach's curse to

be fair because we were talking about losing weren't we and I and she gave me this message going hey do you forget 22 2222 and I was like I got this message offer saying this oh just listen to your pod and you said would love the lightning be the first team to go unbeaten because if not they need to lose are you forgetting that you were part of 22 and 22 Manchester Thunder 22 from 22 in 2022 too. How could you even forget that? So, you need to correct that next week. Thanks. Bye. I was like, I've slept since then, Gregory, that you can actually remember that. I love the fact that you've got a name for it, 22 222, which was the year Manchester went unbeaten and then went on to win the league. Um, we were

discussing in one of the previous episodes about whether a team had ever done that. Tracy had forgotten she had. So, but a lot has happened since then. She's had a kid. She's gone to Australia. You know, she's won gold medals like, you know, yeah, new job, you know what I mean? It is what it is. But thank you, Greggy, for informing Tracy that she did actually do that. Maybe if she goes back and reads the coaching books, she'll find that. But I think that's quite um quite funny, isn't it? like when you have all these breakdowns and like you said it's very much for your environment and your culture and your changing rooms because no one else I always talk about whatever journey I'm on with that team it's us against the

world like that's all it can be for that year we are a group that you have to trust implicitly like you have to be in it together all the way through um and that really matters and so you can speak freely and openly because at the end of the day we're there to win and it's never personal. I find that funny working in broadcasts. When I say things about stuff, I'm just looking at the game and my opinion on what I've seen and stats and what happens. It's never personal. Everybody has good games, bad games, and there's different improvements. And um coming up this week, we're going to have the announcement of the England full-time program. And uh this program runs across the year. It has a group of athletes in.

It's had 24 athletes in, which is quite a large number. There's rumors that it's going to be broken down smaller, maybe around 20. But these athletes are paid properly. They're up in LRA. They're training all the time, but they're away from their clubs. So, they go in, they do this program, they get taken on the tours, they do whatever. And this program has been running since UK, you were in post. You brought this program into light. And this week, that announcement is going to happen. I'm sure we're going to all have our opinions on the names. There's going to be the key names in there like there always is. But I'm not actually so fussed around the key names. I'm going to ask you first of all, who on the sort

of perimeters, who would you go needs to be in this full-time program now for England? To honest, I don't think I was across who was in the full-time program last year. Um, so I think I would expect you to name everyone and it's probably going on another topic and I've probably brought it in a little bit earlier about the number of fossils that are coming back into the league. Um, so you know and that's no disrespect. So you talk about um Joe Noel, Leandro Brand, Casey Kapoor, um Katrina Rory, you know, why are we going to players who have not played the game for what five years, six years, even longer, 10 years, I think. Um when

you look at that, like why are we going to these players? So I'm going to ask you that question first. Why are you going to our players? And then I'll answer your question. Because the there's two things that happen in net ball. Everyone gets excited about a new young breakthrough player. And why shouldn't you? It's amazing when they break onto the scene. They're incredible. They can't do anything wrong. Everybody loves them. It's brilliant. We've all been that player. You have the best year of your life. I had it at England. The best year of my life. Then I played Australia, got dropped, and had to work my ass off for two more years to get back into that side. So you

the difference with the experience is huge and we were already talking earlier about that love pulse game like one of the reasons that everyone could stay that close was because of some of the experience you've taught names that you could keep on the ball your metaf panagaries like are they at um you know they were at their best net ball four or five years ago and yet they're still playing it now as they're aging as well which means just how quality these players are. You I don't believe you can win competitions without those players in your team because you need someone that's going to play the big moments, that's going to get you out of trouble, that's going to talk to the umpires, that's going to pick up the

team in every scenario because they've been there, seen it, and done it all. So, the first thing that happens when you have an injury, you need a replacement in your team, is what do I need right now? Is it another youngster that hasn't played at this level, hasn't been exposed, is going to be great in situations, or do I need someone who's been there, seen it, and done it all? And I did it last year with Mavericks. We brought Amy Heep with Wayne in she was a big reason we got into the finals just in how she was in training. So, I think there's an element for both. And at Mavericks this year, we've done both. We've brought in youngsters and we've looked to bring in experience as well. And we've we've

done that across the board. Um, I also think it matters in key positions. So, you know, a goalkeeper is key and a shooter is key and an experienced midquarter is key. So, it depends who else you've got around there. And that's why I think those players come back. And also, they're still really good. We forget how good older players are. I think it's like this aging process that you're like, just because you're consistently amazing for five seasons doesn't mean that you can't get excited about people anymore. like that is a talent in itself that you can be at this level and stay at this level.

I think as a coach I think you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't, aren't you? And we did it with Nat Medus when we brought her in. We needed a player for one game. We could have blooded in Unique Palavi. Like you you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. Casey Kapor, would you have played her at gold defense at weekend and then she ended up getting taken off injured? I probably wouldn't. I probably wouldn't have brought her back and played her at gold defense for what they did. Um the and this I think was what the full-time program was set up for and people have different opinions about what we did. It was never the full-time program

about holding the best players that had been done. You know, the best players are generally playing in the best competitions. They're doing the best training. They've had the best grounding. they've had the best historical like training and to get them up to where they are. So that wasn't the theory of the what it was about is it was about blooding the next stage of England players. So what you would do is you have we used to have certain competitions where we expected them top players to come back into our environment and what they done then is they play for a significant amount of time some significant amount of competition. And I'm talking it's a four-year process. They come back in and

they play with people like a Sophie Kelly, um, a Grace Smith, you know, they're constantly around that environment. So, we're not looking at them like um, what we're looking at him is the environment and the experience that they need to play with. And you can't do that at all at once because you can only carry so many players. So, if you always keep your best players in that program, people like Gracie Smith will never be constantly being challenged again. image and Allison in training accountability in competitions in some of the targeted competitions that you go to. So the aim of the roses program it was about bringing up the step training standards but also bringing up the training levels of the

younger players to be able to step into them big moments around the particular league which franchises couldn't hold. So if you bear in mind we couldn't hold that. We didn't have full-time you didn't have full-time SNC coaches. you were training very sporadically, you know, um, and I still feel there's still that sort of bridging gap between that. Um, so from my perspective, this Ros's program, you know, it wouldn't hold some of your top players. You'd go and give them time away from the program, let their bodies recover because they're at a different stage in their lives, you know, and then they come in intermittently if they were still in a physical capac, you know, physical and mentally strong enough to do that.

That's what it was there for. And I think um I think it still plays that purpose. And I think that's sometimes where the confusion comes from in terms of who gets picked and who doesn't get picked because you're saying here it's not actually the top 20 players at this level right now. It's a core group. It with experienced leadership that are great that are still at the training capacity that can be in those environments. It's then a group of youngsters that you think are going to be the next group through. So the two points for me and why I've always challenged it as a full-time coach and a super league team is that whilst you then take out my best leaders and put them in that group, you then go and take my best kids and put

them in the group and then I've got a whole group of players back here with none of the England experience and none of the youngsters coming through. And so the gap just gets larger. And what happened before Super League became professional is that you'd have an England group that were then training five times a week, say, or in there, and you'd have a Super League team that were training twice a week with none of these players in. So the gulf just went bigger and bigger. So when we're looking at it now going, what happened to this group of sort of mid20s or whatever that still have so much value to bring onto the game, you lost a lot of them or the improvement didn't happen, so they just plateaued.

And I think that's where I struggle with like How do we want more players and we don't want to have this gulf, right? We want But bear in mind, Tamson, like how many players are in SSN now? Like when I was um when I was head coach, high volume hour players were in Australia and New Zealand. So that was the only way I could get someone like a you know a Nataf playing with um a Helen Hsby or a Joe Harten was to bring them back into that environment and play them in that environment. So at the time like 10 years ago the idea was that you were bringing up that skill level of them particular players and there was targeted approach around that. The other thing that's targeted around that is we

have to look four years down the line, you know, as a thing. It's like four years. Now, you may not be the interim at Commonwealth Games. You may not be our and you probably won't say that to a player, but you may not be my Commonwealth Games, but you will be my World Cup because players retire or you could be Why Tamaru made a really great point when she come in and did the high, you know, the performance director. He actually turned around and said the teams that win a World Cup or a Commonwealth Games are those that have players are five or six players who have done three backto back Commonwealth, you know, three backto-back World Cups or Comwalth Games or have done three have

been involved. You name I want you now to name them five players that are going to this six players that are going to Commonwealth Games who have done three back-to-back Commonw um World Cups or Commonwalth Games. You name them from this group. Uh Helen has El done three. Well will be doing three. El Cardwell maybe. So Sasha Liv won't have. Um who else in your midc court? Amy Carter won't have. IMO. She won't have cuz she wasn't in your group. Um Nat Metaf. Uh did I just say her? So yeah. No. Miguel and Nat. So you look at you've got three players now. Franny would have done it. No, she did. She did 2019. She did. So she'll be it be our third World Cup.

It'd be a third world one. So I get So you look at that now. You look at that now and you're like there's absolutely no way we can win it because the actual if you look now name Australia you know you actually say that now because don't say that if you forecast no if you forecast if you actually forecast T if you forecast that and around other experienced players you know Nolan to when she come in and she beat us in the thing look at the number of experienced players she had that actually tick that box of winning that World Cup Like so you don't just forecast the four year. You to forecast right who's going to be there the next four years. So you might you take that player there because they're going to be

there on the four year. You can't just go oh I'm just going to work to this Comwalth Games. I'm going to work to this World Cup. It's you're for planning. You've got to forecast like you with Mavericks now like we obviously forecast now. You forecast you forecast five years which are your kids are coming through which ones are we going to pin blah because you've got time to do that. So the thing for us is when you look at that, you know what? Why? Who would you bring back? So I'm going to ask you now, fossil. Fossil, we're going to look at fossils in the league. Which other sport actually brings back an assistant coach to play or a head coach? But if we were to bring back any England player, who do you think could still play at this level?

Serena. Who do you think? Serena. Yeah. and she retired way too early. But again, one of the reasons I think she retired way too early is cuz she was playing from when she was like 16 years old. I was playing with her at Bath. She was she'd been there, done it all. She'd already done it. And the longevity in this sport, bearing in mind when you are having to go on so many tours and go into full-time programs and you know, you weren't getting paid properly. There's when you're having a family, all those things, the there's so much other stuff that comes into play. And I get all your point. I do actually think we've got a team still good enough to win, but I mean it's not a hands down win. It's you're

going to have to Helen coming back is massive. Helen needs to be at the Commonwealth Games if we're going to win it. Um but I do think there's a group in there that are good enough that have had enough exposure with the games that we've had. I do get everything you're saying, but my point would be at what point are we going to rip the band-aid off and go, "Hang on a minute. We keep going in these vicious cycles of um bringing in the youngsters, preparing the next thing and we're still keeping this gulf wide. At what point are we going to go, well, we've actually got four years. Why don't as a group, as

a collective, we go, right, these are our core England players that we know. These are ones overseas getting experience. These are our next best group of youngsters. Who do we want? Who do we actually want? Not just they've had a great season, so I'm going to pick them. What style of keeper do we need next? You know, you've got three incredible keepers coming through at the minute. Yomi, um, Selena, and Jada. Incredible. I've wor with them all. They're amazing and they're they're wicked people. Like, they're so they're going to be stars, but we don't need three keepers in the future. You can't take three keepers. So, are you going to make any of those goal

defenses? Are you have you got a target of I want tall? I want a person who can go back and up. I want this. And it's the same with goal attacks. You've got Sophie Kenny, Hannah Gibson, Emma Thacker was having a standout before she got injured. Harry Jones is back in the mix now. She was brilliant against us this weekend and they're just a few. You still got Barry Neil in that mix. So, so but you can't take them all. Why would you take them all into a full-time program? At what point are you going to make decisions about what England need, what players they need to beat the top teams and then leave the others in their programs to develop and get better and also don't take them too soon

because actually some of the basics they need to learn at their club they can absolutely learn which will help develop other players around them as well. And that's all I would say when this full-time program comes out this week. I just want it to have some direction. I just don't want it to be because you've had a great season. Like Grace, Grace Smith is a prime example. She's going to play for England. I'd have her in that full-time program immediately. But who out of the next group in the midcourt do you want to partner her because you know she's going to make it. So I want to see that kind of strategic plan.

Yeah. I think what we're forgetting as well is you also have to pick your opposition as an international coach. So, you know, you would obviously target out, you know, your particular players, but you'd also, if you've done your due diligence of Australia and you do that, you also plan their next three World Cups as well, their two World Cups. So, I' I would be sat there going, "Right, yeah, because then you have to do player matchups." And I think I go back to when I talked about Yoma Yomi and Pipper, you know, when they were my under 15s and they didn't get picked because they couldn't run. Um I think it was 4 minutes 30 on that K. You know we had Grace Noeki in the background ready to

shine and I was sat there going you've got Grace Noeki in four years time Grace Noeki is going to be outstanding. She's going to be world class and we've got um Ebony Ja retiring. Do you know so from my perspective like that is an absolute collective around targeted approach but also targeted coaching targeted approach on the pathway what do we need in that you know who are the specialists around that who and there's a collective approach if you think Tamson when we when I was at Manchester Thunder and what was that 2011 and I was there like four years to 2015 most of my time my spare time was spent in the pathway program you know coaching the pathway program. You think about that they used

to bring in people like Amanda Newton you know I'm sure you got invited you know all the best all us we used to always be in and that's the targeted approach to it so I look at the pathway coach and I absolutely love Joyy's a pointer by the way I used to coach her at team northia but the experience she needs she needs a collective experience around her to give her that support so Jan Crabtree was in at the time she knew that she used to bring in all the former you know the head coach coaches of super league teams and she used to drive them and have a you know give them additional support around that coaching because you know you can't just have one coach you just can't you learn so much more we

used to do specialist stuff and I you know used to be called a technical coach or whatever there was a massive coaching group around them players and they started it around my era you know if I think about but we used to go we used to go overseas for our for my era you know you talk about the coaches that you've had Tamson um and you know and the experience that we've had. Yeah, we don't need to do that. I think we've got some awesome coaches who could really put into that sort of developmental age and share experiences across that level. Um, and they're all former England players. They've all

played at that level, they all could give back and irrespective of, you know, personalities or whatever. It is massive. It's massive to developing them youngsters. We used to do elite groups like around the areas where you used to collectively bring them in, you know, um competition, you know, are we cleaning up competition? We talked about that last week too much with our nextgen, you know, do they do we need to look at, you know, a more phased development, you know? So, for example, players who don't play on a Saturday. So, or don't play limited minutes, they used to go back to the Victorian League on a Wednesday night, right? So the region set like Victoria had this um VNL league, but they didn't just go they

played with people like Sasha Macdonald before she actually made the step up. She they're playing with experienced past players who are still playing in that league. Do you know? So they're actually playing really good net and it's only for a bit but they're still playing what we call dirty net or what we like to assign it. I've gone on a rant there, haven't we? Yeah. It's fine. But it's good. You know what? Um before we just take this short break, one of the questions I got asked is what's something that fans misunderstand about elite net ball and you've just summed it up there. It's

more than just the seven that you sit see out on court and the impact changes. There is so much more that goes on behind the scenes in that week emotionally, physically, tactically, what you've seen out of training, what you know your players can produce. It's more than that game. It's three games ahead. It's a year ahead. It's three years ahead. And so when everybody the fan wants everything now and trust me God as a coach you want it all now. It just doesn't work like that. And sometimes the decisions you see are about a lot bigger picture. So we discussed the full-time program for England and that's going to be announced later this week and we'll we'll see a list of players that England are looking for now and for the future as we've

discussed what that program's all about. Commonwalth Games is not so simple though is it? because um when you're the Commonwealth Games head coach, you have to put in a long squad of players before your actual selection. So if a player now has an amazing back half of the Super League season and hasn't been put on that list, they can't be added into the squad. Is that right? Yeah, if I remember rightly, um we and it is right, but the timing's probably have got a bit wrong. So you have to put an extra long squad. So this Ros's program now would probably be their long squad. So it would be you'd

put in the names of probably essentially 26 players and obviously you had a few outlayers who probably didn't commit to Ros's program and we used to have like a P2 route that they used to come in. So you have to predict 26 but your fossils. Yeah. So you're um you're three to four months out you have to put in and you're going down to I actually was questioning it. I actually asked my former boss Sarah Simon so thanks but um it was around about 18 to 22 players. So about three to four months out you have to put your long list in of 18 to 22 players. So if you think like how when that went in, you know, it's actually quite scary because one that obviously is injuries and at Comalth games you can't replace injuries like

you can at a World Cup and then secondly you also don't have time for people like you know Sophie Kelly or Gracie Smith if they've not been part of that full-time top program. So I look at someone like a Gracie Smith who's been absolutely outstanding by the way. Um to have a center of her caliber come through is just been exceptional. But even from my point of view now I look at it and I go that squad list went in a little bit ago. So she's actually got no chance of ever getting in that Commonwealth Games irrespective of her performance. But also I also look at who would I drop for Gracie Smith because you know I actually did I actually collectively put down about 18 to 20 names and my midc court at the moment

based on you know what's gone before us what we've learned is people like Amy Carter would I drop her? No. Image and Allison. No, you know, Beth Javant, Jess Shaw, Nat Metaf, Alicia Skulls, like I probably would not have dropped any of them for Gracie Smith, irrespective of her having the most unbelievable season. So, in a way, like people need to respect that, you know, these decisions have to be made quite early, but that also have to be made off the back of what has gone before as well. And I think that's something that is really, you know, it's really hard to um get your head around and one as a fan because potentially these rules are not put out to the public.

No. And I think it's it's the long-term planning, isn't it? I mean you know, Grace is just another example. There was so many under 21s that are coming through that are having great seasons or will be the future of net. And you also have to understand the intensity. So playing at um playing at Super League, the step up to playing at SSN, the step up to then playing internationally and then consistently performing internationally is very different and you need time and seasons doing that. You need exposure to do that and in certain positions as well, you know, a um wing attack. I remember the first time ever playing against the Silver Ferns and they used to do their three over. They still do it now. They

they mix and match a bit, but it was like a wall, constant wall. And I've never experienced anything like it. And we talked about it and we did video and we tried to implement it at training, but no one in our country did that at that time. So I was going out against the wall expected to, you know, and in the Super League, I had the best uh center pass receives, best but I tell you what, I didn't against New Zealand the first time I ever played them. So, you know, you don't know what you don't know. And if your first time is at a Commonwealth Games in a massive game, it is a risk. It is a risky little game. And I can say that I mentioned earlier in the show, you know, my first cap was against South Africa and I was brought on at

halfime for you actually, Tracy Neville. I was brought on at halftime. We were drawing. We went on to win that game. Yes, I remember that. It was easy. It was an easy gig because you guys had all gone and done the ground work and I was freshlegged, young kid, never been seen before. South Africa hadn't been watching me and I went on and had the best debut to the point where people were coming up to me afterwards and we were 18 months out of the Comwalth Games. They were going, "Oh, you're definitely going to be going." And I was flying around on Cloud9. Six months later, we went on one of the most awful Australian tours I've ever been on. We were away for three months. We got smashed every single game against club

sides against Australia. Um, we played a test and I think it was Liz Ellis's 50th test. And um she we had to run through this like big banner and then we had little mini balls and we had to throw them into the crowd, right? And this this arena is massive. Bear in mind again, never played in a big arena. I know this is horrendous. I die about this story. I'm so glad it's not anywhere on YouTube or something. So I watch Amar Brazy run out first. She's the starting goal shooter. And me and Amma, no experience in here, by the way, whatsoever. She runs out and she throws the ball so low that it hits the st like stands and bounce back out onto the court. And I'm like, "Oh my god, I've got to throw it high." So I run out into

the court with this mini ball and I throw it so high it hits like the railings above and bounces down onto the court. So a packed Australian crowd have just watched the starting shooter and starting goal attack come out and not even be able to hit 10,000 people. We got even needless to say that game did not go well. We did not play well. I was outwardly I mean exposed by our Australian coach at the time. Our shooters aren't good enough. She's terrible. It's my first time against Australia. I mean I got smashed. Uh our shooters aren't good enough. She's rubbish. I'm been left with this team. I mean she outed us and uh I went home. I got dropped for the Commonwealth Games. It took me another year or so to

get back into that side. and the mental pressure of that. I mean, pretty huge. Um, and I think it's it's this is what people don't understand. Now, it doesn't happen to everyone like that, but I remember Kim Riillian's first ever um Australian cat when Nat Vanberto went down and England won that series. And a lot of it was to do with her not being ready yet because Nat Vonberto is Nat Vonberto. You're stepping into Nat Vonberto shoes. So there are so many things and elements that come about this um that when you're ready, you want that player to be ready otherwise it's it's actually quite unfair on them.

Yeah. And do you know I when I said I wrote down my list um bearing in mind didn't really so I didn't really um take part in you know the Roses program I obviously knew that our girls were in it and that's all that I was bothered about. Um I went out to the World Youth. So I obviously experienced the World Youth actually knew more of the Australian youth team than I did of England team. So it was actually quite a good shot window. Um and then obviously I've watched the international series. So from my perspective here is and people will you know if I look at the shooters in my long squad now it would be obviously Elellanena Helen Liv Lois. I would have picked Barry Sasha Glasgow and then from that world youth I would have thrown in

Sophie Baron because she was outstanding in that world youth. So I would always throw a particular kid in and you could talk about here we talk about um Sophie Kelly and Can I just ask why I actually really love Can I just because that's the question I'm saying like why Sofh over a Sofa Kelly and a Hannah Gibson who I also thought and Ananya Williams who are all outstanding. So that's what I'm saying like why would you personally take her? Well, to be honest, um, I actually liked Sophie Kelly, by the way, but at that World Youth, and like I say, I didn't really know the names. I'm going to be honest. I didn't know the names. So, Hannah Gibson was playing the gold

attack. I felt that she wasn't ready. She wouldn't have been ready to come into that group of athletes. So, she wouldn't have been named. And I also look at key players. If you look at a the Australia World Youth, it was Lily Graham. She was instrumental in that attack. And I thought Sophie really held that. by the way. So, but can't get on the gig at SSN and that's the level I also look at. Yeah. And I also look at that time at where Ellena was at. She hadn't played a whole season. Um I'd also look at, you know, live to Sheen sort of the outstanding, you know, we had Helen. So, we didn't really have a goal shooter and

I thought she played that goal shooter really well as the next gen. So, that's, you know, that is would be my opinion from that. And then obviously you go to the midc court and I go Amy Carter, I imagin Beth, Jess, Na, Alicious Goals. I thought um Izzy Phillips um at the time I have obviously the wing she moved between the wing defense center. I had to ask her name so apology Izzy, but now I know who you are. I like I don't I don't know necessarily the names, but she usually gives it a go anyway. We usually get what we I get it wrong. We just roll with it. Can we just roll with it?

Yeah, exactly. So, you know, I didn't know that the journey or the trajectory that Grace Smith is on. So, from my perspective, she probably would have, you know, from looking at that. And then obviously you've got Fumi, Hi, Fran, Raz, Yas, um Alice Harvey, and then Jada Pova Peka, sorry. Um so them were the like I would have gone down that route and that would have probably been my long squad. Now that is not getting away from like Applebe prince. Like look at her. Unbelievable. She's you know another ja for me Selena. She's amazing. Well do you know um and even people like Yomi like I actually don't know if any of these are in the Roses program next year. So excuse my ignorance but I'm sat

here going that's probably where my long squad would be going for England now. So from PE you know we can go now and go these are outstanding these are outstanding. So I'd be going right okay they are outstanding but unfortunately I missed the boat on that one because I had to pick my squad three months ago. Yeah and that is tricky with the Comwalth Games and this is the difference between that and the full-time program and the ability to do things. Well I challenged you on why you know they're the kind of reasons you're thinking about. So you've got four outstanding under 21 players in goal shooter goal attack but as your point is who's the next shooter after Liv because El Cwell's towards the end of her

career. Liv is going to be your solid shooter for the next she could probably do two more cycles, right? She wants to. So you've got that there, but you are going to need to have someone else in there as well. So out of that next group and actually when I came in with that under 21s, it was a very rotating circle. Now Sophie Egg Baron, as you talked about, she has got all the physical attributes to be that shooter. I mean the way that kid takes ball is absolutely amazing. But it might be you go well actually we need a rotating circle. Then you start looking at the partnerships. So when I was talking earlier about which keeper would you take, it's also who makes them play

well. So Jada is oh my god having a standout season. She's been brilliant at Forest. What I love is her partnership with Tash Pavlin. And I saw something the other day where Tash was like we're at the stage now where we can just read off each other. We know what we're doing. And those partnerships matter as well. So actually a player likes Tash helps Jada's game. So, are you then going to take Have you got goal defenses in there that can help Jada's game? Because, you know, you want to throw out there against Grace Noeki. Yeah, I know. But that's what I'm saying. Fumi would help my game. Tamson, talk about fossils. I could play keeper in front of like Fumi would help my game for CR. You know, France,

she's coming back as keeper. Does any I think I'll be fine at wing attack with the amount of balls she wins. I'd just like fing. Well, I do you know what? It's interesting, Matt. You know, when I asked that question about fossils, I was actually thinking who could still play. I actually think you could give it a good go. I reckon Chelsea could give it a good go. Karen Greg's got no chance. Greg, Do you know what? I actually think Fiona Merc.

Give Fiona Merc the bib, Sam. Give Fiona. Oh my god. Like my hero captain. But give her the bib. I reckon Sonia could give it a good shot. I reckon I play with training. I'd play with Sonia at like all these different things and she's like under her legs or whatever. She's fine. I don't know about Greggy. You see, I think she'd tear up that circle. Her pickoffs and holds. I'm I'm taking it. It be what you'd have to do. She'd have to It'd have to be Do you know what? It'd have to be an old an olding circle. An oldening circle and a penalty.

An old circle and a penalty. She's moving. There's no coming out for that ball. I did say to my team the other day when I trained with them the other day and uh and I was like pinging stuff around and I was laughing. I was like, I reckon I've got a good three and a half minutes in me. I reckon you could just whack me on for three and a half minutes and I do a job, but I'm not sure I go. I say three reps. I've got about three reps in me. Three reps. Three reps and I really suffer the next day. Do you know when you look at it you're like actually can you imagine I reckon Amanda Newton could still play Amanda Newton definitely Amanda Newton

definitely Ser Serena's the one for me that would 100% but that's another thing like your longevity depends on your body as well like what you can do like Serena wasn't particularly injuryprone I wasn't particularly injuryprone I don't think people like Chelsea were like you can go Sonia wasn't really like we you can go for longer periods and that's sometimes just look at the draw as well about where your body's at Um, which is why bringing back key players can happen. Have you like Tamson, have you noticed no one brings midcourt back? They don't bring any fossil midcourts back. So, Serena, you're the only fossil midcourt we could ever bring back. Oh, I reckon Jade could I'll be all right.

Yeah, Jade would be fine. I think it's Karen. Karen Atinson, Olivia Murphy, 100%. You know what? If you're listening to this out of stembridge, um when you I'm going to give her a message. When you do your training camps, bring back some fos. We'll come and play you. But probably three or four minute quarters, but we'll play you. I've got a lineup for you. We're coming for you. I mean, we just three minutes. We'll just play super short time. Greg, it'd be fine in super short time. Anyway, we kind of lost track, but there you go. So, I think the full-time program is going to be key this week to see who England really are

working on in direction. And actually, I'm more intrigued to see the partnerships. You mentioned we've mentioned Gracie a lot today. And actually, when I put out the questions this week, I got so many questions about Gracie Smith and Comwalth Games and whatever. Just be very grateful as an England fan we have Gracie Smith because she's going to tear up the courts over the next few years. Partnerships. I think you mentioned Izzy Phillips. I work with her at London Mavericks, so of course I'm slightly biased on this, but she's also special. Um I get excited about what those two are going to bring to the international game in the next few years. And of course, I work with those under 21s. And there's so

much talent through that group, which you're going to see over the next few years. And we kind of can just chill out a little bit. They will have impact. We've got enough core group there. We're going to bring it through. So, I'm going to finish on um just a couple of other of the roundups of the games. Um Dragons beat Forest for the second time this season. and blew the top four wide open. Uh but it was really close again, which mean Forest gets another bonus point. Forest have been picking off this bonus point. So although they're not always getting the results, they are staying well within the top four realms and

could actually make it through because of that. SSN don't have bonus points. This was another question I was asked. I know you're super passionate about the bonus point because it makes players see out the game. I personally think they should do it anyway. However, the bonus point is an added benefit. Agree? I agree. Absolutely agree. I think SSM would be far more lively. If you think about Giants at the moment who have been taking teams to like them one goals, you know it, you know, they become competitive in that bottom four. You know, they you know, you're going out and you're like, well, to be honest, they only need one win and they're above someone. They're just collecting points.

But they haven't obviously done it. But I do think it does create the endings of games. Yeah, I absolutely agree. It comes back to that chat we were having earlier about the super shot in the one-point zone. And I think it's also showing what Giants have got in them. And this uh this inconsistency you're seeing at the minute is because it's a new build of a squad. But god, when they're on, they are good. When they're off, they're not great. And that will be that level of consistency they need to find. And when we talk about experience, especially in that midc court, that's probably where they're lacking. If you think of the players they've lost over the last few years, Jamie Lee Price, Amy Palena, um

that's been huge for them. And so they're having to up that which is why you're seeing this I think this big shift. But the bonus point has been uh has been great. I mean I'll be absolutely gutted if we don't make top four because another team got loads of bonus points but that is also the way of the game and I would quite happily take bonus points uh if you're getting within there. Um any other interesting games this weekend? Obviously Mavs it was a close one. We beat Rhinos. Thunder got over the line against Panthers but it really was that top of the table clash that matters. Man um Manchester Pulse that will be an interesting one particularly with the starting seven as well that Karen Greg started last week against Panthers you

know will she I thought Nat metaf with Ellena Cardwell was exceptional I thought the feeding um rate to her I felt Ellena felt comfortable you could see they played that together um Lois you saw you know throwing up a few super shots so it'd be interesting whether she goes back to the s Sophie forms Lois L Cardwell sort of front three or whether she starts that netmmet calf because she hasn't done it yet. So, you know, is this the time to try it with the prospect that you've actually going to make finals anyway? Um where you can actually see what how they start and how they come on. So, yeah, it'd be interesting. I'm actually going to that as a double header at Liverpool. I love how we're really trying to push

the boat in the arenas. So, if anyone's not doing anything on Saturday, you go down to Liverpool um and watch the Rhinos and Celtic um actually Alexis Nexus Dragon. Go down there. You will see me. You'll see me there with my mom. And on that note, we will leave you there. Um it's been a great chat again this week. Tracy, thank you for sharing all your thoughts. So, your round 11 games start on Friday in Coventry as Birmingham Panthers host LRA Lightning. First center pass is 700 p.m. live on Sky Sports app and then on YouTube. Then

it's a big clash with Nottingham Forest against London Mavericks. That's 3 p.m. on Saturday. That's the BBC game. I mean, they're both chasing their fourth spot. Then we have the final double header of the regular season that Tracy has just mentioned at the MS Bank Arena in Liverpool. Lexus Nexus Dragons play NIC leads Rhinos at 3:30. And then of course AO Thunder play Pulse at 6 p.m. You can catch both of those live on Sky Sports Mix the app and YouTube. Thanks always uh for joining me Tracy. Enjoy the big game at the weekend. I'll be enjoying mine as well. I'm sure you'll be giving me loads of thoughts as we

head back into off the court next week. And thanks again for all your questions. They'll be really useful this week. We enjoy answering them. We enjoy chatting to you. I don't know about you, Trace, but I bump into loads of people who are loving the podcast. So thanks very much for your support and we'll see you next week.